That's a good question.

And I have no idea.

... I suppose that a gender identity is not a real thing if you're talking about anything outside of transgendered people. If you don't take trannies to be a factor, there wouldn't be a need for the term "gender identity".
Taking transgenders into consideration- gender identity seems more to me like something relating to the physical feelings and mechanical parts of a gender, like hormone issues, emotional feelings and things that are chemically defined by gender.
Gender roles are based on social laws, and most often shallow traits in people. I think. It shouldn't have any weight in a transgendered person's questioning of their gender. It's just social dogma.

>>78256

Trannies is a derogatory twrm, please use the terms Trans or Transgender in the future.

As for the differences, from what was explained to me by a friend a gender role is essentially a forced position put on to you by society, as in a male should be a construction workereven when he would rather be a nurse. A gender identity is essentially who you want to be seen as. Some people are male others female regardless of the parts and then there are some who are both (binary neutral).

As a sidenote, never ask someone what they were born as, ask them what pronouns to use or what sex(s) they identify with. Most folks had to wade through extremely damaging psychological trauma just to be who they are, don't disregard it by asking who they were.

>>78256
>I suppose that a gender identity is not a real thing if you're talking about anything outside of transgendered people.

how about people who do not identify with a gender identity or identify as not having one?

I'm shooting in the dark right here, but I had read something to the tone that gender roles arise from gender identities a person has. That makes sense. In practice they aren't the same thing per-say but are a related dynamic.

But it doesn't entirely satisfy against my suspicion that the gender identity is actually also the concept of gender roles that a person imprints.

Its just one possibility but I haven't been comfortable enough with what I understand to rule it out - that perhaps gender roles socially imprinted can create gender identity issues in at least some people.

>>78258
the above ^

I wonder about how much impact gender roles imprint on gender identity when it does not reflect the physical sex, though 'neutral' is a notable case I don't feel that a lack of identification or a identification with both necessarily constitutes quite the same scenario as identification with the 'other' gender.

But its still quite curious. If gender roles arise from the person's subjective concept of gender identity shouldn't 'binary neutral' reflect a unique concept for gender roles, much like others in their group?

Well I guess ya can't know the answer to this without understanding several views of what gender in general is.

as for me I say gender "roles" are the expectations for how you gendered behaviors and activities. Some people could take a "masculine" role and others can take a "feminine" role through taking responsibilities in jobs or domestic positions or whatever.

Gender identity I think is easier for me to try to explain from my perspective. It's just what gender you see yourself as. If you see yourself as masculine enough to identify as a man, and prefer to be called by masculine pronouns and whatnot, or see yourself as a woman and prefer feminine pronouns.

In the context of transgendered people it's really just people who feel a lot more comfortable identifying as a gender that's not aligned with their biological sex.
Within the context of transgendered, after probly living their lives as a different gender taking on roles and mannerisms that are differently gendered are partly because they feel more comfortable that way, and partly so new people they meet will see them as that gender.

But it doesn't have to be so strict it's the 21st century so unless you live in a shitty town I don't think whether or not your behaviors are gendered the same as your own gender every waking moment should matter.

Last edited at Wed, Sep 24th, 2014 10:43

Gender roles are the presupposed societal expectations assigned to each gender. To give examples from cliche: girls like pink, boys like blue, girls clean, boys fight, girls wear dresses, boys wear slacks, etc etc. However it extends beyond cliche as well, and can be said to encompass all aspects which we would commonly use to differentiate between genders.

One's gender identity is which gender they choose to inhabit, regardless of biological sex. Males most often develop to identify with the male gender role, and females with the female role, and those whose gender identities differ from those expected norms are often trans, gender-fluid, or non-gendered individuals.

I guess, in a nutshell, gender identity is how one chooses to portray their gender, and gender roles are the sort of "default" choices in what gender a person can or should portray.

>>78289
>>78290
It sort of sounds like 'gender roles' are the selection of specific gender-critical behaviors as per that gender's commonly perceived behavior expectations, and gender identities are what one sees themselves to be beneath roles.

So if I see myself to be a woman but my body to be male, do I really see myself to be a conglomeration of women gender roles and THAT is my identity?

I don't see the two concepts as that separate, but at the same time its hard for me to imagine getting your personal identity from gender. Gender roles? Its not something I do, and I consider myself male, feminine, and comfortable being male gendered and feminine, getting my identity from the combination of what I am and not what I want or feel like I really am or should be. Individually or to society (but both, right? since we get our identity from others?)

So its hard for me to imagine seeing it that way, much less seeing that your body is a different way than you 'should be'.

Last edited at Fri, Oct 3rd, 2014 14:41

>>78290
Afaik, gender fluid is that weird idea that your gender isn't a constant, but can change on a whim.

I can sort of get transpeople. But genderfluidity is several degrees of loco.

>>78299
and that's totally cool and fine, because the thing about gender roles is that they are 100% not even a real thing that exist. They are an expectation imposed by society, and a performance played out by people who expect to, or believe they are expected to fit those roles. Different societies have different concepts of gender roles, different people can form different concepts of gender roles. They aren't some rigid fixed point that you must conform to for people to recognize your gender. On the other hand, it's generally understood that everyone in a given culture holds similar ideas of which gender role does what, so that everyone can more easily identify each others' genders without subjective confusion etc.

But as a large portion of the new generation becomes more aware of trans and non-binary individuals, the concrete walls of traditional gender roles are beginning to falter at least very slightly. I don't see the "traditional" gender roles going away anytime soon, but it is good for people to think more critically about them and what they really mean or represent.

The other thing is that gender is purely performance, whereas sex is your biological designation. So if you ACT in feminine ways, and do things in a feminine way, and generally fulfill the feminine gender role, people might just happen to gender you as female. and you might identify as female. Or you might not. Ultimately how you identify is up to you, regardless of what gender roles seem to fit you.

>>78300
gender-fluidity is a strange concept, but if it makes the person happy and they don't get all up in my face about it if i accidentally mis-gender them, then you know, whatever. i don't think we have much of a right to say one person's identity makes less sense than anyone else's.

>>78309
I do believe in live and let live.
But I would say, if someone would walk around being convinced he's a unicorn, I'd do the same.

Rudely put, though, I'd think that a lot of these identities are more a cry out for uniqueness.

Gender roles are the social roles that we have assigned to people of each gender. I.e. women cook, men make the money, women raise kids, men do physical labour, etc. Some of these arise from our society, others are biological, but they all fall under gender roles. They are things associated with being a certain gender, rather than the gender itself.

Gender identity is simply the gender you identify as. For most, this coincides with their genitals, for some people it does not. It's only relevant in the latter case. Studies have indicated that there may be something biological driving it - differences in the brain structure - but so far, nothing is conclusive, Some trans-people may feel that they need to fit into the gender roles of the gender they "switch" to in order to better fit in and be seen as such - e.g. MtFs being overly feminine, wearing dresses everywhere and saying "dear" and "darling" and "sweetie" a whole lot. And FtMs being overly masculine and aggressive, and hitting on people constantly. This is, of course, silly and only goes further in showing those stereotypes to be exactly that, but there you go.

Not really much relation between the two, honestly. Some people feel that they act a lot like the other gender and wonder if they are therefore trans, but there's only one thing that can make you trans, and that's wanting to be the opposite gender. You don't tick off a bunch of boxes on a question sheet and if you gather 50 tranny points, then you're one. You either want to be the opposite gender, or you don't. Transitioning because "it seems right" is a terrible idea, as is doing it to fit in. Don't change for the world, just be yourself. If yourself means transitioning, then by all means. But if that's not something you desperately want, then you definitely want to avoid doing it. Being trans has nothing to do with the gender roles you fit into. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

>>78299

I can't imagine being colour-blind, but colour-blind people still exist. It's just something you have to experience to really understand, I guess.

>>78299
the thing is perception of gender and how gendered behaviors and roles fit into that can be different for a lot of people. Some trans people I've met want to be very feminine while identifying as girls. Some people are in between and don't care and still are cisgendered.

it's why I consider the concept gender to be a very personal and varied thing for everyone, rather than a strict set of rules everyone should follow. It's why I'm okay about the concept of gendered behaviors, but don't like the idea of enforced gendered roles. sounds like you HAVE to do something if you are a boy or a girl. Even though not everyone has the same level of comfort in those positions.

>>78300
sounds like someone needs a more open mind.

>>78315
You'd fault me if I can't take otherkin seriously.


>>78311
I sort of find something I can align myself in there.
If someone feels feline in the way he/she treats things and he/she has a fascination for cats, I can totally dig that.
If you put on cat ears and a cat tail, start purring and pawing at a rubber mice, i'm gonna feel uncomfortable.

>>78317
So, whatever happened to love and tolerance?

>>78347
What happened to "love and tolerance" is that people took it seriously when it never should have been.

>>78347
People can love and tolerate crazies too.