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111864 No. 111864
#Discussion #EQ DAILY COLLAB
Hello /fic/! i am !!Fluttershy. um, it is nice to meet you!

i'd like to discuss a unique opportunity today, and i do hope all of you will find it interesting! i'm working on a major collaboration with EQDaily to help boost /fic/ and make it into an even more fun place to be!

What would you like to see in a collaboration? We already have the training grounds, but there's just so much more we could do!

Let me know your suggestions and i will do my best to see if we can bring fun things to /fic/!

While i'm here, feel free to e-mail me any board related suggestions as well. i'd love to see if we can improve the /fic/ experience for the growing community here.
71 posts omitted. Last 50 shown. Unspoiler all text  • Expand all images  • Reveal spoilers
>> No. 112282
>>112255
> As for an EqD supported Anthology, I can presume that would be a good way for advertisement, but that is more or less all EqD can really offer, if this board is any guide. But then, free publicity is good publicity they say.

Advertisement is a good thing though. It creates synergy.
>> No. 112284
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112284
>>112269
If the Skype call is happening, could it not be until 10 PM EDT tomorrow? Kthxbai.
>> No. 112398
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112398
>>112284
Please e-mail me all of your skype names! If not, just add me at Moony1205.

i would love to hear your thoughts and work with all of you to build something wonderful!

Unless otherwise noted, the conference will be held tonight at 10 PM EDT. Our fall back time, in advance, will be Saturday at 4 PM EDT unless there are objections.

Thank you everypony!
>> No. 112402
>>112398
For those in non-eastern-US times: 21 Jul 02:00 UTC and a backup of 21 Jul 20:00 UTC.

http://tzinfo.cloudcontrolled.com
>> No. 112458
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112458
The conference has begun. If you'd still like to participate, now is your chance to!
>> No. 112479
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112479
>>112458
And here beith the compiled notes of this meeting!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wvvcV70JNJvdFEp1oRdIcGmc8MkqxdkT5NjaBIqkIfA/edit?pli=1#

The scribe bows.

We will be convening again Sunday, the 23rd, at 10 PM Eastern time.

Note that this is subject to change; if another time or date is more convenient for a notable minority or majority, then we will of course change the day.

A final thanks to everyone who participated tonight. Remember, if you need to get in touch with him on this topic, !!Fluttershy mod can be contacted on Skype under the name moony1205.
>> No. 112486
I started working a proposal from the meeting notes. With this you can see what we got done and where we stand on issues. Also if you think something is not being discussed then feel free to mention it.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DUZtx3M2usGs8jMivZ84j0M2sBePWxX1_oLD3cJVg4s/edit

To defend my collaboration point: I personally think that it is best to allow people to collaborate with who they want because that is the purpose of the contest. If we force pairings with everyone, then people will have no desire to seek our a partner for the next competition, thus no collaborating.
>> No. 112551
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112551
A few humble suggestions for next meeting, if I may. I'm not claiming to be innocent myself on any of these points. Just some observations that might help.

+ Let's organize an agenda, at least loosely. Last night was pretty heavily derailed, repeatedly. If we're organizing this many people, we want everypony's time to be used valuably.
+ Take turns. Speaking is important but so is listening. Five simultaneous conversations is impossible for anypony to follow. I will dig out my unabridged copy of Robert's Rules if necessary >:(
+ Everypony has good intentions. Cool it with the personal attacks. Cool it with idealogical attacks. Being /fic/foals, we tend to use words; use your words here, too. Be respectful.
+ Let's not forget the true reasons that we're all here. Your exact reasons may not be the same as everypony else's. Again, be respectful.

Saged for meta.
>> No. 112680
So there was talk about meeting tonight... in like 3 and 1/2 hours. That still on?
>> No. 112685
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112685
I'll be around.
>> No. 112740
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112740
Next meeting time: Tuesday July 24 02:00 UTC (Monday July 23 10:00 EDT)

Sorry about the bumpy start to things; it took me a bit to find my sea legs w.r.t. parliamentary procedure and all that. Still, I think this format will be more productive than shouting and less bureaucratic than it was today, once we get used to keeping things moving. As long as y'all find me and Filler's moderation useful, anyway.

Very brief notes
+ Some perspective from /art/
++ Comics / graphic novels: lolno
++ Storybook (full page art + block of text): doable but possibly intimidating
++ Illustrated novel (occasional B/W sketches interwoven in the story): very doable
++ /art/ is very worried about attracting the wrong crowd. Essentially, those who neither contribute art nor offer constructive critism. Interesting parallel to /fic/, useless FimFiction comments, etc
+ Format
++ Publish in FimFiction/GDoc. Images are embedded. Author and artist(s) are creditted in-doc. Collections are published on EQD.
++ Matchmaking would probably be choose-your-own-partners, as opposed to assigned teams.
+ Adoption of parliamentary procedure, topic list, speaker queue, etc etc
+ Should the storybook project be advertised/recruited on EQD?
++ Vote: Nay
++ General vibe: We should probably start this as a fun thing for the existing /art/ and /fic/ communities. Probably not a great project in which to join the community. Those who are attracted to PC by this project can always contribute next round / in other competitions.
+ Should the storybook project be advertised/published on EQD?
++ Vote: Yea
++ General vibe: Promotion is good. EQD is currently unparalleled in that regard. This project is unique and deserves spotlighting. Artists will be visibly cited, as opposed to Drawfriends for instance. If this becomes a point of contention for /art/, it can always be revisited.

Future topics
+ Should the storybook project be an actual competition, with judges and voting? Or should it simply be a collaboration project, published to EQD without a voting phase?
+ Write-Offs
++ Better promotion on EQD of existing competitions (e.g. Roger's)
++ I thought at some point there was discussion of an EQD-exclusive write-off competition?
>> No. 112748
>>112740

Chatlog: http://pastebin.com/mrVC1XTb

Timezone calculator, in case you need help converting from UTC: http://tzinfo.cloudcontrolled.com/

Another future topic: Iron out the actual details of the storybook project itself. Determine how teams are picked, what exactly are we asking for in terms of picture size and word ratio, the rules of the actual competition. It's all been discussed briefly before but should be formalized.
>> No. 112756
Something I'd like to ask... would there be a way to insert the images for an illustrated novel directly into the story?

I don't know if there's a way to insert images directly into a G-Doc, I've never looked into it hard. The one way I could think to do this would be to embed links throughout the story.
>> No. 112757
>>112756
You can. Example:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sc9MPCoAI36oNSLVNmdGsrGIm_lg-dqTYxl8HF1XF28/edit?hl=en_US (Ditzy Doo and the Blustery Day by uSea)
You can do this with dragging and dropping the image into the document or by using the insert image button. You will, however, probably run into sizing issues. That appears to be why the author of this fic prefers FiMFiction for his illustrations.
>> No. 112760
>>112756
Yep, both GDoc and FimFiction support embedding images directly into the story, which should be fine for the illustrated novel format. I'm realizing now though that the storybook format might be an issue. For a physical copy, you'd normally have words on one page, picture on the opposite. Since neither GDoc nor FimFic allow for a side-by-side format like that, it'd be tougher to enjoy the text and full-page art at the same time.
>> No. 112763
>>112757
>>112760
Sweeeet... Thank you!
Man, I should have been able to figure that out on my own, I am DerpFox. X3

>I'm realizing now though that the storybook format might be an issue.
For a storybook, probably the most effective way to present it would be to have a high-res full-page illustration with the text placed in the image itself. This is one of the reasons I don't favour the storybook concept as much as the illustrated novels: it requires somewhat more graphic design and typesetting know-how from the artist. Besides: full page illustrations are a lot more work.
>> No. 112923
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112923
Another meeting come and gone, and we're mostly structurally intact. At this point, we I drew short straw will be putting together a proposal in short order, for any final feedback, before we pick a date (within a month-ish) and get this show on the road.

+ Competition (voting, judges) vs. simple collab
++ Depends on phrasing. /art/isans are a shy bunch
++ No one wants this getting overly hostile or competitive. The point is fun
++ We do have prizes available, but that might escalate drama, so maybe not this time
++ Unique storybook format may attract more voters than normal
++ Consensus: yes to competition, but let’s keep it friendly

+ Thematic constraints?
++ Keep it EQD / Ponychan appropriate
++ Keep it SFW
++ Otherwise go nuts

+ Storybook vs. Illustrated Novel
++ Definitions by WhiteFox: http://pastebin.com/MnRTpNdS
++ Storybook requires a bit more graphic design, not everyone will be familiar with how to accomplish this
++ Comparative voting between the two formats may be difficult
++ Freedom of choice is nice
++ Getting some storybooks would be pretty damn hot
++ Artists may very well bite off more than they can chew
++ /art/ representatives not on board with the idea, due to risk, huge effort involved
++ This won't be the only /art/-/fic/ collab in the history of ever
++ Vote: 4-1, illustrated novels only

+ Ratio of words to pictures?
++ Meh, up to the team

+ Team size
++ One writer per team, more is dumb
++ More than one artist could work (one for sketching, one for inking) but challenging
++ Expected turnout: maybe 10 artists, 20-30 authors? Unlikely to be an even turnout
++ Vote: 4-1, people can pick their own teams (one author and one artist). Remaining unslotted folk will be paired at random. This does mean some people won’t get paired, but it can’t be avoided

+ Write-Off
++ /art/ doesn’t want recruiting for their side on EQD, /fic/ side is okay with it
++ Both sides’ results will get posted on EQD
++ Re: higher visibility, that’s already coordinated at this point

=======

We do legitimately have a few other questions that were forgotten, but no need for another meeting. That's what this thread is for :{

+ When exactly is this? Late August? Won't conflict with Write-Off #5 and gives /art/ and /fic/ some time to mingle.
+ Do we need a minimum length (wordcount or pagecount)? Given the format, I'm inclined to say "no", but previous competitions have had a minimum.
+ My nose looks funny.
>> No. 112926
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112926
>>112923
You know, it'd be nice if you made an announcement that you're going to do some 700+ conversation chains on here for those of us who aren't religiously logged into Skype.
Honestly, too tired to really care (and kinda glad I wasn't spending my entire day in there), but it'd be nice if you did that.
>> No. 112927
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112927
>>112923
More on topic.

>++ /art/ doesn’t want recruiting for their side on EQD, /fic/ side is okay with it
What about DA recruiting? We need more artists if we want this to be balanced.

>+ My nose looks funny.
I think it adds character.
Like Nigel's.
>> No. 112931
>>112926
Mentioned the next meeting time earlier in the thread (>>112740) but yes, shoulda bumped this tonight. Mea culpa.

>>112927
>What about DA recruiting? We need more artists if we want this to be balanced.
That's totally kosher. No restrictions saying that artists must be from /art/, just that there won't be a EQD post calling for artists. No formalized plan for reaching out to DA as of yet, but we can organize something.
>> No. 112932
>>112931
Might wanna run that idea past the /art/ists first.
>> No. 112935
>>112932
IIRC WhiteFox & co mentioned in chat they were okay with it, but sure, can check with /art/ at-large first.
>> No. 112936
>>112931
>Next meeting time: Tuesday July 24 02:00 UTC (Monday July 23 10:00 EDT)

I read as far as "Tuesday". UTC doesn't mean much to me DX.
Also, I figured having a day off after yesterday's talks was the plan.
>> No. 112937
>>112927
We pretty well figured that there would be more /fic/sters than /art/isans participating. I thought that if there was a shortage, /fic/sters could go looking for partners... either by searching /art/ for /art/isans who hadn't signed up yet (and goad some of the lazy bohemmes into participating), or going to DA or tumblr.

>I think it adds character.
I never said it was bad.
I just said it was funny.
>> No. 112938
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112938
>>112936

[7/23/2012 1:06:23 AM] Roger: I'm glad you guys are starting to use UTC, though.
[7/23/2012 1:06:24 AM] Kurbz: Also, I think that we should summarize the idea at some point. Because I'm fuzzy on what we've come to a consensus on so far.
[7/23/2012 1:07:00 AM] Roger: If there's one thing the internet needs, it's disambiguity on timezones.
[7/23/2012 1:07:16 AM] Filler: UTC = GMT, right?
[7/23/2012 1:07:26 AM] Bleeding Rain: [Monday, July 23, 2012 1:06 AM] Roger:

<<< I'm glad you guys are starting to use UTC, though.I wonder what the world would be like, if everything in this world ran the wat Roger thought it should...
[7/23/2012 1:07:27 AM] Roger: For all civillian purposes.
[7/23/2012 1:07:42 AM] Roger: The world would be a terrible place, I'm sure.
[7/23/2012 1:07:56 AM] Pav Feira: it's just annoying b/c UTC puts the meeting on Tuesday, but it's Monday in US
[7/23/2012 1:08:00 AM] Kurbz: It'd be organized as fuck. With labels everywhere.
[7/23/2012 1:08:04 AM] Pav Feira: i'm sure several ppl will get confused on that
[7/23/2012 1:08:09 AM] Roger: Hahahaha
>> No. 113037
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113037
Here's the proposal for the illustrated story collab competition. Any feedback on the idea? Feel free to leave comments here or in the document itself.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1akRzjFTnube-WgWrc6EpWkav4_FKY2oAmT0QyraxN_4/edit
>> No. 113041
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113041
>>113037
Looks good to me.
Question, though, what's to stop someone from Emailing the artist of their choice and getting a head start on the competition? That's what the prompts were for in the write-offs, except since we agreed not to use them due to how they'd limit creativity that's no longer applicable. Is the trust system in effect here or is there another plan of action for dealing with this?
>> No. 113627
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113627
Okay. Gonna post notes from last night's de-facto-meeting. Still busy writing my two bits, see next post.

+ Sethisto had apparently shown direct interest in a collaboration, thus the reason for involving EQD in the first place.

+ Questions of if it's even possible to have a collaboration with EQD.
++ EQD doesn't particularly have a "community" per se. It does have a large viewbase.
+++ Arguably, it's one of the central hubs of the brony community. It reaches a broader swath of bronies than sites like Ponychan, DeviantArt, FimFiction, etc.
++ EQD can offer Ponychan invaluable traffic when it comes to advertising and promoting.
++ What can EQD, /fic/, and /art/ offer each other?

+ Questions about EQD's "community" and its potential to harm Ponychan's community
++ The majority of the (three) /art/ representatives feel EQD's traffic would be negative.
++ /fic/ seems mostly divided. A few individuals are largely protesting the move. Some welcome it. Many are apathetic.
++ The general fears are that EQD newcomers will disregard existing rules, will flood out the "old guard", and will alter the current intents of /art/ and /fic/.

+ Honestly, we haven't had a representative sample of /art/ involved in the discussion.

+ Next meeting tentatively set for Sunday July 29th, 5pm EST (21:00 UTC)
>> No. 113628
>>113627
How many members of /fic/ were actually involved in this anyway? How is the break down for the decision and what were the arguments? Would it be possible for logs to be posted in case others wanted to see?
>> No. 113636
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113636
>>113627
>+ Sethisto had apparently shown direct interest in a collaboration, thus the reason for involving EQD in the first place.
This is the sort of thing that should be announced at the beginning. I do not like how it wasn't until people started saying that they didn't want EqD's involvement since it's being used as a sort of buy-in now that things have moved away from the original plan.

>>113628
I suppose I could C+P the chat.
And, in one regard, too many. The debate was a clusterfuck. However, as an actual sampling, it was far too small.
>> No. 113640
>>113636
>This is the sort of thing that should be announced at the beginning.
I think everyone was thinking he approved because we didn't think moony would just go up to a group, make an activity, and suddenly get Sethisto to go "Ey´nope".

>I suppose I could C+P the chat.
Thank you.

>And, in one regard, too many. The debate was a clusterfuck. However, as an actual sampling, it was far too small.
I also noticed there were few people from art from what is being said here.
>> No. 113643
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113643
>>113627
>pic

>Sethisto had apparently shown direct interest in a collaboration, thus the reason for involving EQD in the first place.
If you post your personal opinions about Sethisto-the-person here, I cannot stress how little I will care. I think if EQD-the-site is explicitly showing interest in a collaboration, we should give the idea further thought. The EQD collab doesn't have to be the illustrated story idea, if people are deadset on being divided.

>Honestly, we haven't had a representative sample of /art/ involved in the discussion.
*ponyshrug* While I certainly agree, we can only work with those who will work with us.

>What can EQD, /fic/, and /art/ offer each other?
EQD and /fic/: /fic/ offers its TTG and reviewers for the betterment of authors. It also boasts competitions and a few discussion threads of note, like the Story Forge. These services, arguably, are more for writers than for EQD itself. However, EQD unquestionably benefits, as /fic/ is its officially-endorsed destination for writers in need of assistance. EQD offers writers a huge amount of traffic, versus simply posting on FimFiction. Again, this is more for writers in general. EQD doesn't currently offer much to the reviewers of /fic/ directly. EQD does, according to recent discussions, does have intention on shining a spotlight on /fic/'s competitions and projects.

EQD and /art/: /art/ really doesn't have much of a connection with EQD. There's the Drawfriends, but according to the handful of /art/ists in Skype and the /art/ thread, opinions are neutral-to-negative. This is a small sample size; I'm aware. /art/'s interests, to my understanding, are mostly about improving their craft, showcasing within their small community, and occasionally taking requests.

/art/ and /fic/: Historically not much interaction. There does appear to be interest, between Roger's newest Write-Off, and the fact that this thread evolved from an EQD-/fic/ collab into an /art/-/fic/ collab.

The relationship between /art/-/fic/ appears to be blossoming and I see no reason to stifle it. Unless a bunch of posters pop up on /art/ and claim otherwise, /art/ doesn't appear to have goals that align with EQD's, and doesn't appear to be interested in building a relationship. If that's the case, I see no reason to force it.

As for EQD and /fic/, there's a fair bit of smack talk here about EQD. That it fails to be what I expect it to be. That the prereaders' standards do not measure up to my standards. And those are fair opinions to have. Some individuals of /fic/ have drama with individuals at EQD, and I would like to re-stress how many f~yay~s I do not give. Despite all this, I posit that /fic/ and EQD, as sites, currently have a positive and appreciative relationship. I see no reason not to foster and promote this relationship. This leads into the next point.

>The general fears are that EQD newcomers will disregard existing rules, will flood out the "old guard", and will alter the current intents of /art/ and /fic/.
I've tried to stay quiet on this point, because I haven't been around long enough to see old /fic/. I understand that it was bad. I understand that what we currently have is so much better. I understand that the average EQD commenter has devolved to Youtube standards. I understand wanting to protect what we have.

I do not feel that fears re: a /fic/-EQD collab are warranted. I point to the last Write-Off, and how little outside traffic it generated, let alone newcomers who entered the competition, let alone the number of those newcomers who are still here one month later. I point to the fact that every new thread is bad, and OP needs to read the sticky, and reported. I point to the number of ill-intentioned newbies who quickly get pissed at the formality of this place and leave a "I'm never coming back here again" post.

And look at the newcomers who actually stick around. Good-intentioned. Well-articulated. I see some nice reviews on TTG from names I don't recognize. The "old guard" will inevitably move along, but I think the average new reviewer is well-acclimated to the current atmosphere.

I get the sense that (and forgive me for the strawman) the fear is that an EQD collab will flood /fic/ with one thousand mouthbreathers. I feel that's wrong on both accounts: it won't generate a fraction of that traffic, and I have better faith in the decorum of the average individual who actually sticks around. Once they're here, the older folk drum up the rules frequently enough that I trust in the newcomers to toe the line.

tl;dr—IMHO an EQD collab will not implode the established reviewer community, Derpy-townhall-style.

>So, in conclusion?
The illustrated story idea is mostly formalized at this point. At its core, it involves /art/. /art/ doesn't want to deal with EQD. F~yay~ing middle school all over again. Ergo, we don't recruit for this event on EQD, unless /art/ gives its blessing.

I stand by my earlier statement that I'm in favor of strengthening /fic/'s relations with EQD. Combine this and the previous paragraph, and we arrive at a separate project. So, IMO, back to the drawing board. Perhaps revisiting the brainstorming ideas from the beginning of the thread?

Anyway, if you don't mind, I'm off to write some fanfiction.
>> No. 113649
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113649
>>113640
Sethisto wouldn't have done that. The write-offs have been posted there several times, so that argument is kinda dumb. Plus, there's a difference between "approval for posting" and "legitimately interested in the result". Suddenly, people have been dumped with the weight of the person that is essentially the biggest face for the fandom waiting on them. It's an important distinction to make.

>I also noticed there were few people from art from what is being said here.
There was no one from art in there at all last night. I personally called for it to be moved to a later date when we could actually get all sides in on the debates.
Also, I was tired.

>>113643
>The EQD collab doesn't have to be the illustrated story idea, if people are deadset on being divided.
So we do another write-off? I'm not seeing the need behind all of the extra round-tabling in that case. If we want to do this, it needs to be something special, and that's not going to happen with the same-old same-old.
The illustrated stories was what elevated this to a level that could actually make people care and /art/ doesn't seem to want it, so now a new game plan has to be made.

>While I certainly agree, we can only work with those who will work with us.
They're working with /fic/, so I don't see where you're coming from with this. They're just not working with EqD. EqD is entirely secondary to actually making this a thing. Its involvement is not necessary for any part of the process to organize a /art/ and /fic/ collaboration.

>and the fact that this thread evolved from an EQD-/fic/ collab into an /art/-/fic/ collab
Personally, I think /fic/ spending its time with /art/ to make this happen is better than yet another Write-Off on EqD. As you mentioned (and I address), EqD doesn't give us a whole lot in the way of additional participants and long-term users.

>I do not feel that fears re: a /fic/-EQD collab are warranted. I point to the last Write-Off, and how little outside traffic it generated, let alone newcomers who entered the competition, let alone the number of those newcomers who are still here one month later.
This point also goes against bringing in EqD: Why bother if it generates so little traffic?
>> No. 113750
>>113649
>Why bother if it generates so little traffic?
Because it's a large possible benefit at negligible cost.
>> No. 113891
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113891
Bump for another meeting in about an hour. We're hoping to finalize the remaining details and pinpoint EQD's exact involvement once and for all. PM pavfeira on Skype for an invite.
>> No. 113901
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113901
I know I'm late to this and probably not up-to-speed on everything, but I'd appreciate a little clarification on a point in the collaboration notes:

> /fic/ will take over many of EQDaily’s fanfiction needs
> EQDaily doesn’t have the infrastructure in place to deal with it fully
Here's the thing: /fic/ doesn't either, at least not the sense of the website. I've likened /fic/ to a sand castle; the discussion board software is the sand. Ponychan has fewer categorization, ranking, notification and presentation features than FiMFiction, and that's really saying something. /fic/ is held together by a set of rules and traditions upheld by the community that takes care of it and makes it all work, so to say that /fic/'s "infrastructure" will be used in place of EqD's is tantamount to saying that everyone who wants to go to EqD for fanfiction needs will be required to learn the way of doing things on /fic/, and I imagine that won't sit well with most people on EqD.

Apart from that, I can't really see how having competitions here will disrupt the culture except in the sense of providing a distraction for reviewers. In general, I see /fic/ as a workshop and marketplace of ideas for the process of writing / writing improvement and of works in progress, rather than showcasing. That includes discussion threads about writing, writing exercise threads, and writing competitions, the latter included because writing competitions are a way of challenging ourselves to write. At the risk of starting a derail, reviewing will not stop being a part of it because of competitions, unless /fic/ becomes competition central and none of the reviewers review any more because they're preoccupied with competitions. I would say the more important question to ask is whether such competitions are well-suited for a place like /fic/ insofar as how the structure, format and MO of the image board (and /fic/) are not detrimental to them.
>> No. 113908
>>111864
>What would you like to see in a collaboration? We already have the training grounds, but there's just so much more we could do!
What I'm about to say has nothing to do with the fic/art collaboration currently dominating the discussion, but it does have to do with fic/EQD and The Training Grounds in particular. If there is a better place to discuss this, unnecessary comma, I apologize in advance. Also: I started writing this before Demetrius made his post above, but his description of /fic/ turned out to be oddly relevant.

There is no doubt that the pre-readers of Equestria Daily are flooded, daily, with a truly leviathanesque quantity of fan-fictions. The vast majority of these fics are garbage, and are immediately sent down the chute to TTG. Only some of those writers actually visit, and only some of those actually stay long enough to clean up their act.

This seems less like "training" and more like "damage control." Like a squad of elite navy seals sent to resolve problems involving bombs or hostages, TTG is only called to duty after the situation has already become nearly unsalvageable. Are we bailing water when we could be plugging holes? When I see a twenty-thousand word epic that requires a complete rewrite because it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, I die inside because I know my advice will not be followed. Cannot be followed, perhaps. I hate it when my review boils down to "stop sucking." I feel like if I'd sat down with the author over a cuppa tea, before they started writing, I could have saved them an awful lot of trouble with a lot less work from everybody.

They say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and I would really like to see this put to the test. There must be some way we can help fanfic writers before they put pen to paper, because that's when every minute of planning saves you a full day of actual work further down the road. I understand this must sound like an overly ambitious, idealistic and/or naive idea. I admit that I have no idea how to even begin doing this, or how we could tell if it's working. But if we could find a way to do this, I think everybody would benefit: The writers, the pre-readers, the reviewers, and even the readers. EQD could promote it as an ongoing thing, and pre-readers could chime in on discussions to offer advice, observations and opinions. TTG Reviewers could engage in back-and-forth discussions on vital topics, and maybe host writing exercises or lessons disguised as mini-contests. We could announce that writers who attend the workshop have a much higher likelihood of getting on EQD. It might even be true! I understand that critical feedback is necessarily harsh and unforgiving, but this would be a chance to be encouraging, helpful, and maybe even--gasp!--positive.

So that's my suggestion: Why don't we try to help EQD submitters proactively? Sure, we might get flooded by morons. But the people who would come to us for help are the exact same people who are already doing so now, except they'll visit us before EQD gives them a first strike. Merely by choosing to attend, they will prove that their dedication to the craft is at least slightly above average. Whatever the case may be, I don't think we'll make as much of a lasting difference by swatting one bee at a time.

I think that's what keeps reviewers from burning out: being able to say "I made a difference." And you know what? I would love to make a difference. Failing that, I would like to try.
>> No. 113910
>>113908
I was told a plan that sounds eerily similar. Talk to the Samurai, he seems to be organizing something like that.
>> No. 113920
File 134360481658.jpg - (141.06KB , 910x638 , twilight_sparkle princess_celestia moonlight.jpg )
113920
+ EQD will be involved in the recruitment process
++ While we understand and respect the concerns raised against this point, we want to do what’s best for the event (that is, making sure there are enough entrants)

+ Illustrated stories will be encouraged, for the sake of trying to focus the entries
++ Other related formats (storybooks, graphic novels) will be permitted if the participants are overly ambitious

+ Teams
++ /collab/ threads to help artists to meet writers and vice versa
++ It’s up to individuals to make teams. We’re not getting caught up in auto-assigned team drama

+ Which individual(s) will be in charge of event coordination?
++ Tabled

+ Prizes will be available for the winners

+ Judging
++ 1st round open voting phase
++ Potentially, 2nd round private voting phase?
++ Final round, judges select winners
+++ Get a set of judges from multiple backgrounds (/fic/, /art/, EQD)
++++ Exact specifics of selection process: tabled
+++ Judging rubric? Art, writing, originality, unity of elements?
++++ Helps clarify why something is first place or fifth place
++++ Public perception of non-bias is important
+++++ A potential threat, if an author/artist of high notoriety enters the event
+++++ Drama, always the drama
++++ A rubric assists the judges, keeps them consistent with each other
+++ Alternative: relative ranking from best to worst
++++ If unity is most important, shouldn’t that be the only category?
++++ Simplifies the matter (Occam’s Razor-ish)
++++ Using a rubric that analyses art and text separately, demeans the collaborative nature of the entry
+++ Issue tabled until a further point in time

Next meeting time: TBD
>> No. 113923
>>113920
Was this agreed by art?

Also, logs for those who were too busy to join the meeting and all that.
>> No. 113924
No one from /art/ showed up. :o
>> No. 113925
>>113923
Logs: http://pastebin.com/a1QCAyGU

/art/ was notified and reminded, but no representatives were in attendance.
>> No. 113952
I would like to explain my concern about comics in this contest. Apart from the ones I mentioned in the e-mail to RogerDodger.

Ideally, a full page comic should have no more than a hundred words of dialog. Webcomics flagrantly break this rule all the time, so let's say... three hundred words. I could write and edit that in about two hours.

If an artist was working at peak efficiency for ten hours a day, they could probably do such a page in... five days. And that's with the bare minimum of work required to make something that doesn't look like crap.

Considering that the writer will be doing a fraction of the work, I would hesitate to call it a "collaboration" at all. Unless the author had significant skill and experience in writing scripts for comics, they wouldn't get to contribute much of anything at all.

Second, comics are insanely popular. I'd be capable of hammering out a half way decent six page comic, single-handedly I might add, that has a far better chance of winning than a story with as many illustrations as my comic has panels.

There'd be no competition, if only for the simple fact that lazy voters can read a short comic in a minute or two, but a story of any decent length would be tl;dr. Guess who gets the vote.

Third, I'm seeing a lot of people saying "they can try if they want, it's on their heads." Well, I guarantee you that people will try and it will end in tears, flank-hurt, and broken friendships. Not exactly the best way to build bridges between /fic/ and /art/.
>> No. 113962
Point the second; /art/'s lack of involvement in this discussion.

Everyone on /art/ is a hermit. Me and probably two other /art/isans ever stick their nose out of their own thread. I'm trying to do something about this on other fronts.

They're really friendly hermits, though, and the majority of them are asking for suggestions or requests.

This is why I wanted to do more of a find-your-own partner thing. I doubt you'll get much response by posting a thread for asking for participants, but any writer who goes looking for an artist will probably find one pretty easily.

And, for the record: Yeah, I'm only person, my thoughts do not reflect those of the entire board. The reason I showed up was to make suggestions based on my perspective and experience as an artist (like why teams large than 1+1 would be unviable). Not as a "representative." I said as much repeatedly.

Here's a question: did Mooney even read the transcript of the previous discussion?
>> No. 113966
File 134361466773.gif - (928.14KB , 245x254 , tumblr_m739i3MxHR1r3jvgyo4_250.gif )
113966
>>113962
>Here's a question: did Mooney even read the transcript of the previous discussion?
No, not to the best of my knowledge.
Of course, expecting someone to read several-hundred replies that largely consist of round-table discussion is a bit much (I know I haven't). However Moony is the chairperson of this deal by virtue of being the thread's creator, so such measures would be prudent of him so as to conduct from his position in a responsible and informed manner.

>Picture is unrelated, but we can all use a dog barking at a leaf blower from time to time
>> No. 113968
File 134361486309.png - (225.97KB , 657x722 , spike-mirth.png )
113968
>>113925
> mfw Seattle_lite does the most heavy lifting in trying to help keep people all organized and shit

Gotta love that guy.
>> No. 113976
>>113968
Wow. Actually, looking through that log...
> mfw Seattle_lite does the most all the heavy lifting in trying to help keep people all organized and shit
Fixed.
>> No. 113980
>>113952
FWIW I agree. If teams want to stick together after this event and work on some epic-length graphic novel, they're always welcome to. But the group consensus usually seems to circle back toward not stifling creative freedom.

>>113962
>And, for the record: Yeah, I'm only person, my thoughts do not reflect those of the entire board. The reason I showed up was to make suggestions based on my perspective and experience as an artist (like why teams large than 1+1 would be unviable). Not as a "representative." I said as much repeatedly.
Precisely. All we wanted was perspective from the /art/ side of things, so that we don't make further silly propositions like the graphic novel idea. Don't undersell yourself, as your input has been very valuable. It's just been difficult to find input from other /art/ists.

>>113976
Pretty much!
>> No. 113984
File 134362107875.png - (219.31KB , 486x348 , 003.png )
113984
>>113980

In fact, and I apologize for not showing up, I've became a very busy person in a short amount of time, and I'm mostly out of my home.

>+ EQD will be involved in the recruitment process; +While we understand and respect the concerns raised against this point, we want to do what’s best for the event (that is, making sure there are enough entrants)

I knew this would happen eventually anyway if not much artists showed up, and, while I don't agree completely, I'm sure it was the right choice to even the numbers, and two persons don't really speak for all the artists.

>>113962

I agree, Artists aren't going to bite arms off any time soon, as long as you ask in a civil manner, and don't give up if you're turned down once.

And I know I'm just repeating Fox, but if you're sure you don't want to limit creativity by allowing more formats, Examples SHOULD be listed, or at least properly explained, because you're going to have a lot of failed entries if people don't realize the amount of work needed, by BOTH sides.

I also don't understand why even comics would be allowed, I understand it needs clever writing, but the sheer amount of writing is just not there, same for storybooks and graphic novels, but as you said, to each team their own, there should be some kind of "I understand the risks and won't cry like a baby if I fail" clause somewhere :p
>> No. 114021
>FWIW I agree. But the group consensus usually seems to circle back toward not stifling creative freedom.
Then I shall elaborate further.

How many people do we expect to even try comics? There are probably three people on /art/ who are capable of doing them at all. I'm one of them, Bluey is another, and I can't actually name a third guy. I just thought I should leave some wiggle room.

Me and bluey aren't stupid or crazy enough to do comics for this thing, so that doesn't leave a lot of people to be stifled: Approximately one hypothetical artist.

Plenty of guys do ask-tumblrs... that kind of work would be well suited for storybook type stuff. Not. Comics. Whole different animal.

What I would worry about most is writers searching /art/ for comic artists, and turning down perfectly good candidates who aren't up it. Talk about making someone feel inadequate. Or pushing an artist into doing it, only to end in tears. For both sides (And there will be tears, I don't think you guys appreciate what kind of a meat-grinder comics truly are).

Failing that, it'll be one more thing that will make /art/isans think "nope, I'm just not good enough for this."

As for creative freedom, when you do comics, you have to stick to your script like you're on buckin' rails. You can't skip over the boring parts. A conversation is basically having to draw fifty talking heads of the same two characters, going back and forth. Even mundane sequences of events can require four or five panels. It gets pretty monotonous.

It's just as bad for the writer... I cannot begin to describe how utterly brutal you have to be when cutting down dialog, or how little scene description you actually get to work with (about one decent establishing shot per scene change, or once every three pages or so). And that's assuming the artist is comfortable drawing full scenes, which most /art/isans are probably not.

This is why I'd rather go for the illustrated stories. An artist can read the story over, and just draw the bits that inspire them. The writer could point out the bits they think are worth drawing.

It's also more flexible, and less stress. A story could be anywhere from 3 to 30 thousand words... the artist can just draw as much as they're able to, in the time they have. If they only get ten of the dozen images they were hoping for, it's no biggie. If they have to drop out half way through, the writer still has a few pics as consolation.

So: can we... please... just... drop the idea of doing comics entirely? You want the perspective of someone from /art/, here it is: comics = just no. Don't make a rule against it, just don't bring it up or even mention it at all.

If this is brought up again, I have another four reasons why it's a bad idea. Each one of them merit a wall of text in their own right. This isn't a threat, I just want people to understand the sheer, stupifying, megalithic proportions of how bad this idea really is. I'm all for encouraging people to do comics, but this is not the time or place for it.
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